FVV 041329 - 10t Carflat

Current number:
041329
Any other previous number(s):
B748668
Notes:
Transferred into Internal User stock at Harwich Parkeston Quay in 1977 but IU number probably never applied. Moved to Temple Mills C&W Works from where disposed of for scrap. Believe scrapped at Armytage & Sons, Sheepbridge, Chesterfield c6/77

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All Sightings

LocationDateObserver
National Railway Museum, Shildon** *** ****Leslie Wild

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Comments

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  • 24 November 2016 - Peter Hall

    This was originally LNER BTO 3595, later numbered 16675. It then had its bodywork removed and became Carflat B748668 before having a ramp added and becoming 041329. I don't think there is any doubt that in 1986 and 1987 it was at Harwich Town although a picture to prove this would be extremely useful. Roger Butcher recorded it their in his 1992 book 'British Rail Internal Users' which is three years after Roger Harris saw it at Thornaby. Whilst not disputing it found its way to Shildon in 2006 I certainly never saw it their and wonder if Leslie made an error and it was 041323 he actually saw.

    As you will realise in my comment today for 060773 a Cartic Ramp which could be this still exits at Harwich Parkeston Quay Yard.

  • 28 November 2016 - Peter Hall

    Further to the previous comment and for the particular attention of Roger Harris.

    Is it possible your sighting on 1989-03-08 actually refers too 041339 rather than 041329?

    Also, on your visit to Harwich Town on 1987-04-25 did you record Cartic Ramp B748164 in addition to 041329 (B748668) and 041363?

  • 11 December 2016 - Peter Hall

    Following a discussion today it would appear that B748668 was scrapped in 1977 at Chesterfield. It does though appear that it may well have seen use at Harwich in the mid 1970's. I have also been quoted what it says about this in the November 1986 edition of RAIL. On his visit to Harwich Town Roger saw an otherwise unidentified CARTIC Ramp which he says "might have been 041329 converted from B748668". Please not the word 'might'. He clearly included it in his 1992 'BRITISH RAIL INTERNAL USERS' book believing it to still exist at the time based on what was known at the time. It is only quite recently a disposal in 1977 for B748668 has come to light.

    It is important to note that Roger saw three CARTIC Ramps on his visit to Harwich Town, 041363, B748164 and one unidentified. I believe these are the three in the Roger Bartlett pictures taken in January 1987.

    This leads me to conclude that none of the four sightings here can actually have been of 041329.

  • 4 January 2017 - Ben Williams

    Thanks Peter. Sightings deleted. The Thornaby and Shildon ones particularly odd! Suspect latter mistaken for 041323.

  • 28 January 2017 - Peter Hall

    I have now seen further documentation regarding B748668 which suggests a clerical error occurred at some point, This led to it appearing to still exist on BR records when it almost certainly had been scrapped.

    B745668 was withdrawn from capital stock in period 1/77 at Parkeston Quay and transferred to the BTDB Internal user fleet at the same location. No evidence has been found confirming that it was allocated the number 041329 but for Roger to have mentioned it in his article and book I feel confident he has seen records to that effect. The 041329 number fits as being issued in 1977. The IU number was though probably not applied which led to latter confusion. i.e. it remained numbered B745668.

    B745668 was then withdrawn again in period 5/77 at Ripple Lane C&W and sold for disposal in the same period 5/77 to Armytage & Sons, Sheepbridge, Chesterfield where it is believed to have scrapped later that year.

    The presumption is that for some reason, in 1977, it was moved from Harwich Parkeston to Temple Mills, perhaps for conversion to a CARTIC Ramp. This conversion was not then proceeded with for whatever reason and it was decided to dispose of it. As the vehicle only carried number B745668 that was how it was referred to in the records which actually show two disposals for it. The latter of these should of course have referred to it 041329. The result was that this remained on BR records as existing when the reality was it did not.

  • 11 March 2021 - Roger Harris

    Having just gone through my 25/4/87 sightings for Harwich / PQ, the following is what I wrote down at the time - Harwich Terminal ADB 999034 (2024), Harwich Town Station B748164, 041363, 041329 and PQ 060773. I hope that may be useful in the debate.

  • 12 March 2021 - Peter Hall

    Roger, this is very interesting.

    I do wonder if you had mistakenly recorded 041329 when what you actually saw was a ramp without identity. My current conclusion is that the Roger Butcher report the previous year suggesting 041329 "might" be the identity of the unidentified one that was at Harwich Town has become interpreted as "was" subsequently. Evidence that has now emerged suggests it "wasn't". Otherwise your report of Harwich Town tallies with Roger Butcher's.

    With regard to PQ, discounting the move of 041363 between yards, it is intertesting that I only recorded 060773 in 1986 and you the same in 1987. Roger Butcher did though also record an unidentified ramp. I suspect the unidentified ramp was in a different part of the yard and we both missed it

  • 12 March 2021 - Peter Hall

    Roger, this is very interesting.

    I do wonder if you had mistakenly recorded 041329 when what you actually saw was a ramp without identity. My current conclusion is that the Roger Butcher report the previous year suggesting 041329 "might" be the identity of the unidentified one that was at Harwich Town has become interpreted as "was" subsequently. Evidence that has now emerged suggests it "wasn't". Otherwise your report of Harwich Town tallies with Roger Butcher's.

    With regard to PQ, discounting the move of 041363 between yards, it is intertesting that I only recorded 060773 in 1986 and you the same in 1987. Roger Butcher did though also record an unidentified ramp. I suspect the unidentified ramp was in a different part of the yard and we both missed it